Also of note in the debate, I think, is that Will Carroll noted that Joba's shoulder might not warmup quickly enough in a recent UTK. Judging by Chamberlain's season first inning struggles, including diminished velocity, maybe he is not physically set to be a reliever right now anyways.

So what should the Yankees do with their pitching staff?

1. There would be no "debate" if not for seven weeks in 2007, when the Yankees were desperate for a reliever and turned to him.

2. You always see if a top rate starter in the minors can be a top rate starter in the majors. Always, every single time. Especially with how modern relievers are wasted, as Joe notes.

3. The "highly visible and vocal" proponent in New York of moving Joba to the pen is one Mike Francesa, and Francesa's arguments are pretty ludicrous. He said he "has seen how good Joba can be in the pen," but "has not seeen how good he can be as a starter." Well, first you need to (surprise!) actually let him start in order to see how good he is as a starter.

Second, he has been PLENTY GOOD as a starter, as Joe notes. Sure, he has struggled with command, but he has been fine as a starter, and there is no reason he can't improve.

As Joe also notes, relieving is easier than starting, so it's not surprising that Joba was better as a reliever. The issue is why one would advocate wasting his full potential there.

4. This would not be a "debate" if someone named Mariano Rivera had never played for the Yankees. But there is now an obsession with Replacing Rivera.

5. As for the general issue of bullpen roles, first people were fooled by something called a Closer; now they think the 8th inning is magic as well. It's really bizarre.

6. Francesa last week kept citing Chamberlain's 3.97 ERA for 2009, as if that were bad. But it's not bad, and is basically the low range of what people are expecting of him anyway. Francesa discounts Chamberlain's performance as a starter in the latter half of 2008 because he thinks the Yankees were babying Chamberlain. So, apparently, the time Chamberlain spent in the majors pitching to major league hitters as a starter doesn't count.

7. Joe: I thought you told me you don't listen to Francesa?

My question is this:

Why is it always Joba that has to go the bullpen? As Joe so astutely notes above, he is a fantastic starting pitcher. He was a starter before the Yankees moved him to the bullpen for two months back in 2007 in an effort to help a porous bullpen at that juncture in time. With Wang healthy now, why is no one is talking about pushing HUGHES to the bullpen? He's younger than Joba, coming off a lost season where he was injured, will probably push the Verducci Effect this year with his IP, which, when coupled with the injury last year, will NOT be good for his future prospects.

And Wang, with 38 wins over the last two years, should at least be given the benefit of the doubt here over a 22 year old uber-prospect. If his mechanics are cleaned up and his sinker is on, he's a great weapon to have in the starting five. The Yankees already have a similar pitcher in their bullpen. His name is Alfredo Aceves.

So the question bears repeating; Why not let Hughes be the 7th or 8th inning guy. You can limit his pitch counts
to 20-25 pitches per appearance and keep his IP low and in line with what theworkload of a 22 year old kid should be. He can hit 95-96 on the gun when he's throwing with maximum effort too, and has a great curveball to offset that
heat.

With Pettitte most likely gone next season you have Hughes work his arm strength back to being a starter during the offseason and you leave him there for the duration of his career.

Why keep yo-yo'ing Joba around when the solution is right in front of their face?

Oh. Francesa also said that Chamberlain "was built to be in the bullpen." Apparently Francesa is oblivious to the fact that Chamberlain was a starter in the minors.

I also think it's not right to jerk Chamberlain around back and forth between the rotation and the bullpen. He's switched roles twice now in season.

In 1995 there was a brief obsession with putting Clemens in the pen. I loved Clemens's response, which I present here in full:

"I'm a starter."

i was at the stadium in '07 when joba came out of the pen and struck out 3 tigers in a row with like 10 pitches, flashing 99 mph heat. the stadium was electric.

that being said, the idea that joba is more valuable as a reliever is hilarious and it amazes me that it still gets talked about.

Francesa's baseball ignorance knows no bounds. He should stick to what he knows: Parcells, college football and horse racing.

Good overall point as usual. However, just to nit-pick because I am in nit-picking mode judging all the BP Idol entries: Joe did a nice job of picking all-stars giving appropriate weight to players who were really the best over the last couple years rather than just the first two months of the season. However, citing Pettitte as the no. 1 starter followed by Chamberlain is ignoring the real ace of the team C.C. Sabathia. I think a strong case could be made for A.J. Burnett as the number 2 starter. You could pick between Chamberlain, Wang, and Pettitte as the number 3 starter.

Should Rich Harden be moved to the pen?

I often respond to people by suggesting that the Mets should put Santana into the middle innings role so that he can pitch 3 out of every 5 days.

I think an important point to remember is that when Joba as a reliever, he had these little things famously called the "Joba Rules" that limited his use and probably helped his effectiveness.

Joba the reliever was never required to pitch two days in a row. If he pitched two innings one game, he was then allowed to take two days off. Would he have been as effective if he was treated like a normal reliever?

Meh, sometimes people are just crazy.

I definitely think the Yanks need to keep Hughes in the rotation as well, whether at the major league level or at AAA. Every reason that Joba should remain a starter applies to Hughes as well. Hell, I still think Hughes ends up as the more effective starter with a longer career. The last thing the Yanks need to do is mess with his development.

I'm kinda liking the idea of Wang as a reliever, at least until the inevitable AJ Burnett injury. Plus, if everyone does stay healthy, maybe the Yanks can work Wang into the rotation during the heat of July and August to help keep Joba and Hughes fresh.

There are worst problems to have then trying to fit six pitchers into a five man rotation.

It isn't gonna happen in the modern game, but if you are going to put a guy like Joba in the pen, why not let him come in in the 7th and finish the game every 3 days or so, especially if a couple of your starters are 6 inning guys, or need to be handled carefully due to injury history? That would give him about 150 innings a year during which he is likely more effective than the starter, and there is a pretty good chance your 'closer' would get the day off. It seems like it makes even more sense if you have a guy that as a starter, couldn't make it through the batting order more than twice.

The solution is incredibly simple and elegant: let him pitch the 8th. And also the 1st through the 7th.

Was Dave Righetti a failed starter? No more than Cal Ripken was a failed 3rd baseman. Bold moves are Bold moves. Ignore all the noise. It still might be a good idea.

He has a career whip of nearly 1.45 as a starter, does this not scare anyone? I can't recall any "elite" starters who have a career whip this high, soon enough it will end up hurting him.

Apparently Brian Cashman reads Baseball Prospectus and read my post!! Just kidding, of course.

Yankees announced today that Wang will start Thursday's game with Phil Hughes going to the bullpen. Hughe's actual role has not yet been defined, however, so it will be interesting to see exactly what role they give him.

This debate is so frustrating. Attacking the other side's argument is not usually a great indication of your own argument as far as I'm concerned. Joba is the most dominating pitcher we have at the moment. His success last year in the pen may have been helped by the Joba rules, but I never wanted him to start at any time as good as he is. I want him to succeed Mariano. I'm not looing to jerk him around at all. Now that we have six good starters I am loving the luxury of it all. Reminds me of 1998. Unfortunately one of the six has to be in the pen and Wang, provided he's throwing well, doesn't really seem so suited to the pen (forgetting the fact that he's an established winner when healthy as he was on target for his third consecutive high teen win season when he got hurt last year). I have no doubt Chamberlain can start and be very effective, but now that we seem to have addressed that issue I'd like to see the Yankees take care of that bullpen. Mariano is not going to be around forever and we need to groom somebody. Chamberlain and Hughes have, what?, ten wins between them lifetime? I'm not disparaging anyone here; I love them all, but making Wang a reliever is basically addressing our long relief guy role, which Aceves is currently manning. He's not going to be our 8th inning blow away bridge to Mariano. I know this is a tough decision and I'm not making light of it, but this team has a chance to win it all if it stays healthy and finds a suitable eighth inning guy. We took this role for granted in the off season and now we are paying for it a bit. We really need a hard throwing veteran right handed setup guy
and until we find one we are vulnerable. I'm more than aware Chamberlain was a rookie when he ascended to that role, but I don't think Melancon and Robertson have that kind of stuff and I can't stand watching Veras pitch. This debate, from our side of things, is not about is Chamberlain more valuable as a starter or reliever; it never has been really. I don't want to jerk the guy around either, but we need him to setup more than we need him to start right now. And I'm perfectly willing to go with that strategy down the road as well. Mariano is the greatest closer who ever lived in my opinion. When he steps aside we will have a Grand Canyon like void to fill. I know Pettitte is all but gone after this year and that Burnett is a bit older than our core, but I'd rather pay big money to a proven starter than $17M a year to Frankie Rodriguez. We can groom our own can't we? And by no means am I dismissing the other side of this debate despite being ridiculed and insulted for what I and many others believe. There's a reason this debate won't die; it's pretty even for and against after nearly a year of talking about it. Nobody is 100% right. If our starter doesn't pitch seven innings we stand an excellent chance of coughing up the game before Mariano can pitch. Right now, since we are scoring 10 runs a game it's not much of a factor, but in the playoffs...all due respect to the folks who want Chamberlain to start. He's great wherever they put him. I don't need to be right; I just want to win it all. I don't really believe there is a right and wrong answer here until we have to hand the ball to a less than dominating reliever with the season on the line. I hope it never comes to that, but you know it will...

This seems to me a simple decision. You can get 160 to 200 innings of good pitching, or 60 to 80 innings of good pitching. Why on earth would you sacrifice 100 or more innings of good pitching? (In a season, a team is on the mound for a shade over 1400 innings, so we're talking more than 7% of your season.)

A-Rod isn't that good a third baseman. He's better than he was a few years ago, but he's still not very good. I do think that there is a statistical bias in that Yankees face more left handed hitters than most teams, but three years of below average numbers don't lie. He's not really comfortable there.