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January 25, 2013 BP UnfilteredWhy Wahoo's Gotta GoEarlier this week, I came across a link from Craig Robinson at Flip Flop Fly Ballin’ to a cache of 14 radio broadcasts of baseball games from 1948-1967. If you like history or listening to baseball on the radio, this is a treasure trove, and you’ll want to spend a while absorbing the sounds of the game in the time of fast talk and high trousers: Boudreau, Berra, and Ballantine Beer. One of the broadcasts is from the fifth game of the 1948 World Series and features Mel Allen (in the third of what would be 18 consecutive World Series assignments) and Jim Britt calling the Boston Braves’ 11-5 win over the series’ eventual victors, the Indians. It starts out innocently enough—a friendly greeting from Allen, a word from our sponsor (Gillette, not yet bragging about its blade counts), and a reminder that we’re listening to a relic of a time when someone still watched boxing. So far, so good. But it’s 1948, and it’s Indians vs. Braves. If you’re thinking, “That sounds like a recipe for some casual cultural insensitivity,” you’re right! I’ve embedded the relevant bit below. Prepare to be snapped out of your nostalgia around the 30-second mark.
Ben Lindbergh is an author of Baseball Prospectus. Follow @benlindbergh
65 comments have been left for this article. BP Comment Quick Links seabass77 (20338) History teacher here. The main lesson of history: Everything changes all the time. It's past it's time and if history is correct it's on its last legs, as it should be imo. amazin_mess (9525) I live near a reservation. You see members of the tribe wearing Indians (Wahoo logo) hats and Redskins hats all the time. kcboomer (4676) Other readers have rated this comment below the viewing threshold. Click here to view anyway. At times you would think that BP should rename itself the Baseball Leftist. In stead of mounting a soapbox and sermonizing about something as trivial as this how about doing some positive actual work for a those in need? Mr. Cthulhu (47348) Really? Baseball Leftist? Come on man, Baseball Pro-Leftist flows so much better and was the low hanging fruit you could have so easily grabbed! I am disappointed. Richard Bergstrom (36532) If you're offended by a single article, I suggest you read the title of the article before clicking on it next time...wasn't it pretty evident what this post was about just from the title? Llarry (1146) I think just ditching Wahoo would be a fine step in the right direction, even if the Indians name is retained. John Carter (22689) What if we were more politically correct: Cleveland Fellers is spectacular, though perhaps less so considering that there was a guy in the Indians' team history named Feller. Jan 25, 2013 18:34 PM jssharo (1531) Anyone for the Cleveland Spiders? Mr. Cthulhu (47348) Yes! It meets the "tradition" standard and the "it's a damn awesome name" standard! John Carter (22689) I think "Spiders" would turn off the multitude of Cleveland's arachnophobes. There are reasons that name did not endure. delatopia (19303) Honestly, if we had a baseball team with the name of the Cleveland Negroes, or the Cleveland Jews, or the Cleveland Banditos, or the Cleveland Chinamen, and a similarly cartoonish and stereotypical logo, people would immediately see how ridiculous, outdated and racist it is. But because it's an Indian, the original doormats of North America as far as Manifest Destiny goes, it's fair game. It's shameful and embarrassing. delatopia (19303) Honestly, what's the difference between all these logos in terms of stereotyped imagery? tmangell (33575) Most of the comments miss the point: the nickname isn't offensive, the logo is. As someone who proudly has Native American ancestry, I'm OK with the Indians, or the Braves, or the Illini. I do draw the line at images that demean others. I think (not sure) that the Braves did get rid of Chief Nokahoma - even they got how offensive that was. tmangell (33575) As for the Mel Allen excerpt, wow! I think the only offensive term he didn't mention was squaw. Even in the 40s, he actually spoke about the reservation! SaxonB (67391) While I agree with Ben here, I do think it's also another form of cultural imperialism where we are now making the decisions and discussing these topics without the input of the actual population that is being depicted in a derogatory manner. SaxonB (67391) Correction: Check the article linked from "shouldn't be particularly proud of." Jan 26, 2013 08:51 AM Dodger300 (3120) One certainly doesn't need to be Native American to understand that Chief Wahoo is a highly offensive stereotype, any more than one needs to be African American to know the depictions of "Sambo" and "welfare queens" are also offensive. Pat Folz (6254) The other problem with referring to the descendants of the aboriginal people of these continents as "Indians" is that there is a large and growing chunk of the population with roots in actual India. The logo needs to go NOW, obviously, and honestly the nickname - for both the team and the ethnicity - needs to follow shortly, for practical concerns if nothing else. Richard Bergstrom (36532) India as a country didn't really exist until 1947. India had a history of forming up from individual kingdoms, then being conquered/controlled by one power or another (Persians, English, etc) and broken up again. Also didn't really exist until 1947: Cleveland's Chief Wahoo. And this Chief Wahoo didn't exist AFTER 1947: http://www.authentichistory.com/diversity/native/is3-buffoon/Big_Chief_Wahoo_Strips.html. Jan 27, 2013 07:38 AM Richard Bergstrom (36532) The basic idea I was trying to convey was that the Cleveland Indians were called the Indians before India existed as a country. Dodger300 (3120) I don't know what it accomplishes to try to limit your point to a time when India was able to break free from its colonial rulers. Mr. Cthulhu (47348) So, can someone explain to me why they want Wahoo to stay? delatopia (19303) As an Indians fan going back to the mid-1970s who also knows that Chief Wahoo should be relegated to the dustbin of history, I must say that there is a part of me that feels some affection for the logo despite his obvious stereotyping. I grew up with Chief Wahoo; he graced the uniform of all sorts of players I rooted for, from scrubs like Veryzer and Duffy to phenoms like Charboneau and Snyder to stars like Sutcliffe and Carter and Belle and Thome. He's the one continuous thread with all of those guys. R.A.Wagman (32721) There is really no good reason for the Cleveland franchise to keep the Indians nickname. R.A.Wagman (32721) BTW - I would vote for the Spiders, or the Foresters - Cleveland is known as Forest City. John Carter (22689) delatopia (19303) Only if your sense of history doesn't go back more than, say, 50 years. John Carter (22689) I was born in New Jersey 58 years ago. It had many super highways running through it then (or as early as I can remember - as a precocious map studying 4 or 5 year old). The Newark area was one big stink pot. The New Jersey Turnpike brought you through vast stretches of swampland. However, my sister lived near Morristown from 1981-2011. Northern New Jersey did and still does have an even larger areas of grassy suburbs of New York and Philadelphia on rolling hills. For all I know, that's how it got its nickname. It's just that we don't associate the state with gardens. delatopia (19303) Well, I didn't necessarily mean that 50 years ago these were garden spots and forested regions, but that 50 years ago I imagine one can remember talk of New Jersey being a farm state or Ohio being very woodsy. There's a Forest City lumber/DIY-type national chain that got its start in Ohio the early 1900s. John Carter (22689) There is no argument that these places must have had a past that justified their nicknames and that those nicknames are now amusingly outdated. To defend your 50 year time frame, however, you must consider that vast suburbs of New York extended across much of northern New Jersey well before 50 years ago, while Philadelphia's suburbs possibly go back even further. Then there is the Princeton area in-between - also long ago de-farmed. Princetonians consider themselves locals to both N.Y. and Philly, so northern New Jersey is all one big suburb. The coast, of course, has long been a well settled resort area. The Monopoly game based on Atlantic City is, what, 80 years old? Sure, the 'burbs have extended even further since then, but New Jersey was already better known for its huge suburban area 50 years ago than practically anything else. Although, they do grow excellent corn. Richard Bergstrom (36532) The Chicago Bears should be renamed because, from what I understand, they aren't all gay players. jashnew (42112) Other readers have rated this comment below the viewing threshold. Click here to view anyway. This article actually insults the people you are trying to protect. It's OK because most Progressives think with their heart instead of their brain. The "Indian" pictured as Chief Wahoo does not exist today. They existed 100 years and then after that they assimilated. They opened casinos, sent their kids to college, and stopped wearing feathers in their hair. What you are saying is that the Native Americans today look like Chief Wahoo. If you think Chief Wahoo resembles a Native American today you are a racist. delatopia (19303) That's awesome. Do you view the antebellum South, with "laborers" toiling away in the fields on plantations in the South, as being a charming and romanticized period in our history as well? Are you one of those clueless (or dishonest, I haven't figured out which) revisionists who thinks the South was merely defending "states' rights" in fighting the Civil War? delatopia (19303) BTW, if you really consider Chief Wahoo from a "romanticize [sic] period in our history," Mr. Cthulhu above puts it much better than I ever could: jashnew (42112) Delatopia- I appreciate you reading both my posts. I care about this issue because I do not like political correctness. It limits the freedom of speech. It's entirely up to the owners of the Indians. If enough people protest about the mascot they will change their name. I think you are missing my argument. Indians are just like Pirates, Knights, and Cowboys. They don't exist anymore. They are all from a different period. I wish I could talk to a person who's ancestor were Indians. I really don't think they would care. I'm not upset at cowboy or miner mascots. My ancestors were cowboys and miners. delatopia (19303) jashnew, thanks for a response that was a lot more polite than mine was. jashnew (42112) Other readers have rated this comment below the viewing threshold. Click here to view anyway. Delatopia- I appreciate the response. I did go to the link and read the whole article. I think what is lacking is a sense of humor. Chief Wahoo is funny. It's not malicious or destructive. It sounds like it's one person who probably needs a hobby that is also a rable rouser. I wouldn't get too excited. Not a subscriber? Sign up today!
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If we get rid of Chief Wahoo we will have to get rid of all human mascots. Do we want to do that? No Irish, Spartans, Trojans, Cowboys, Minutemen, Aztecs, Colonials, Senators, Hoosiers, Knights, Pirates, Warriors, Rebels, Aggies, Miners and etc.
This what we do because I like solutions. If you don't like it don't buy Cleveland Indian merchandise or watch their games. It's a baseball team that nobody really cares about.
I doubt ownership will do anything about it. It will be a slippery slope if the Indian mascot is changed.
Those arguments were mentioned by Paul Lukas in the piece I linked to in the last line of the post. I thought he countered them fairly convincingly.
That's a terrible argument.
"It will be a slippery slope"
I disagree. In fact I look at your whole argument as a slippery slope fallacy. Mainly because besides the Pirates, none of those mascots are MLB team names. Even more so, I don't know of a big pirate population in the US that are being offended by the Pittsburgh mascot.
And some of the other mascots you named don't have negative or stereotypical connotations to them (such as Minutemen, Colonials, Senators, Hoosiers, Miners etc.) and some are nicknames for groups of people that simply don't exist anymore (Spartans and Trojans come to mind).
I can't really fault anyone for not taking offense to the Cleveland logo and nickname. But it does hurt me a little that a sport like Baseball has been somewhat progressive culturally in this countries history.
You must've missed "Talk Like a Pirate" day. They're around. Of course, it's hard to understand what they say so it's hard to tell if they are offended or not.
I think the vast majority of anti-Wahoo folks would be happy with getting rid of all ethnic mascots. Aztecs, for instance, probably should go. Hoosiers and Irish aren't the same either, because these mascots are self-referential (or were at one point, in the case of Notre Dame). If a bunch of Native Americans want to start a baseball team called the Indians, they should feel free.
Your solution doesn't really work, because the only people who could boycott in numbers sufficient to make a difference are Caucasians and Hispanics. If the markets decide, every other group will be fair game.
Besides, what would be the harm, even if that slippery slope came to pass? That's not a question you even attempt to answer. The only answer I've ever heard is tradition. Big deal. We have plenty of traditions. Some of them are worth keeping and some aren't. If a fan can't fathom his favorite team with a new, they either have a profound lack of imagination or weren't much of a fan in the first place.
Not the least bit convincing.
Plus you insult the team to boot, but falsely stating that nobody cares about them.
"It's a baseball team that nobody really cares about."
I didn't know Chris Perez had a BP account...