Prospectus Perspective

Have you seen Ryan Doumit? He's weird looking. Todd Greene is kind of ordinary, and the Chinese catcher was just a guy. And the number of lepers cured by all three *combined* wouldn't even reach Posey's total from last year.

Apples to oranges. I remember when BP used to stand for honesty and objectivity.

Kudos

Besides, we all know that if Scott Cousins is without a job at 38, Sabean will give him a 2 year deal.

I think you're judging Sabean way too harshly here. Posey was on the infield side of the base line when he was hit.

1.) In the Sandoval hit, the catcher is in front of the plate. Different situation.

2.) For the Greene hit, you quote Felipe Alou. If you want to hammer Sabean for hypocrisy, you ought to do it with his own comments.

3.) For the Schierholtz collision, you again quote someone other than Sabean.

Sabean is clearly being hypocritical, but isn't he supposed to be? I'm not defending his asinine comments, but the sentiment behind them. He's paid to put this team together and to expect him to not side strongly (and, in this case, too strongly) with his side is naive. Again, this doesn't make what he said about another player's career acceptable.

The real problem to me isn't the hypocrisy, but the threat. Sabean out-and-out promised retaliation against Cousins. You can't have GMs publicly calling for their players to attack and potentially injure other players. That is something MLB needs to look into. It should be nipped in the bud.

That is fantastic. Larry has been an awesome addition to BP and this is my favorite thing he's done yet.

I am absolutely with you on this Larry. Sabean shouldn't be doing this just because his best offensive player became affected.

How many weeks ago did this happen and Sabean is just now making this comment? He's seriously still this angry/upset over this?

Where is his professionalism or maturity?

I don't recall the Indians crying a river when Santana got leveled at the plate last year.

Larry rocks. I've been collecting items for my Larry Granillo shrine and I'm scouring the net now for a Sabean voodoo doll. It'll go nicely with my potato shaped like Babe Ruth's body, my County Stadium 1/2000 scale model, autographed Joe Shlabotnik baseball card, and Ferris Bueller's Day Off VHS tape. Now if Jon Daniels will just go on record saying "We'll have a long memory, and that Tim Lincecum guy is toast after what he did to us last year.", then the stars will be aligned and I'll know that 2012 is indeed the year of the apocalypse.

Larry - since you're becoming a celebrity and all with all these shrines and stuff going up, is the "ll" in your last name an anglicized pronunciation or a Spanish pronunciation sounding like a "y"?

Oh yeah, most importantly to Mr. Goldman. The man needs a raise. :-)

On the Todd Greene collision, what you don't mention is that it occurred in the last days of the season, so the DL was not even thought of. He didn't have it fully checked out until the season was over, and it turned out that from a baseball point of view his right shoulder was basically destroyed. There was no way to repair it such that he would be able to throw.

There would have been different quotes from Alou and/or Sabean if they had been asked about it after finding out the extent of the damage.

Well done!

Thank you for this article. I too was confused and appalled at Sabean's hypocritical rants and threats. I wrote to the Giants and expressed my disappointment in their GM. Sabean should be lobbying for different rules, not tossing out school-yard bully-ish comments.

It's unfortunate that in both of his columns on the matter, the writer has chosen to misrepresent where Posey was stationed when Cousins chose to replace home plate with Posey. As all video and photographic evidence clearly show,Posey was in fair territory, which provided Cousins with a clear lane to the plate.
The argument that there have been relatively few serious injuries due to this practice and it should therefore be legal is preposterous on the face of it. Let's not act until a carcher or runner is paralyzed, right..it needs to be tweaked, but Bochy's ideas are a start. BTW, I don't see anything in Bochy's proposal indicating that it would only protect SF catchers, do you?

I clicked on a link to this article expecting to find some contradictory quotes from Sabean relating to past collision-at-the-plate incidents, similar to what the "Daily Show" so often does with politicians. No such luck. Sabean's comments regarding Cousins were ridiculous, of course, but you've scarcely proven that they were hypocritical.

Any GM who loses his best and most popular position player for several months due to injury from a rough (albeit legal) play at the plate might be expected to express his frustration on the record, if only because he's probably been asked for comment by umpteen reporters every day for the last week. That he didn't also go on record with similar comments when, in a game not involving the Giants, a catcher takes a hit from one of his farmhands on a play at the plate (but apparently suffers no serious injury) proves nothing.

This article detracts from the real issue to be discussed just as much as Sabean's ill-advised comments do.

Granillo May 27:
"One thing I'll advise against: using the testimony of past players to prove your point"
Granillo June 3:
"And don't forget, Greene himself had no problem with it."

http://tinyurl.com/3owkw7o
On the left is Cousins, Posey to the right...Sorry, wait. That's, uh, Tatum and..
Buster was lucky.

Good article pointing out the hypocrisy with which these issues are dealt. But I think it misses the broader point which is, IMO, home plate collissions are dangerous to the point of absurdity and have no real role in the game of baseball. It makes no sense that you're allowed to try to knock a guy unconcious an an effort to dislodge a baseball, but only when you're trying to get to home plate.

You see star players like Brian McCann and Buster Posey miss significant time because of this. The home plate collission is the dumbest part of baseball that I know of. Watching batters try to slide around tags is WAY more interesting IMO than watching them pretend they're playing football.

I speak as a third-generation Giants fan when I say that Sabean has said something really regrettable here. Almost dumbfounding, actually...particularly in the wake of the Bryan Stow tragedy.

Billy Beane is treading a much better path, by publicly instructing Kurt Suzuki to avoid collisions.

As the rappers say, "don't hate the player, hate the game."

Absolutely well done. How long is Sabean going to keep whining about the play? Add in his level of hypocrisy and he should just stop before he loses any credibility he has left.

Well done, Larry! Sabean's comment goes beyond whining and amounts almost to a threat against Cousins. Will we see any disciplinary action? I doubt it, but something needs to be done.

Just a couple of quick comments:
1) Sabean doesn't bat so HE can speak of his long memory;
2) anyone else read that neither Sabean nor Posey is accepting/returning telephone calls from Cousins?

(/sarcasm on) Classy organization. (/sarcasm off)

Great article. Sabean wants an MLB version of Jordan Rules for his star players. And a bigger K zone for Timmy.

This is like the debate that won't die. I commented last week on this same topic in BP. I think that trying to assign blame in this home plate collision is splitting hairs. His foot was here. He could have slid there. This crash took place in the matter of about 1-2 seconds. Posey didn't get to look at it in slow motion and reposition accordingly nor did Cousins. Cousins was trying to help his team win a game. That's what he gets paid to do. The consequences of his actions were unintended. There was no "mens rea" (criminal intent).

I have heard the agrument that catcher's wear protective gear and no other position players do. But shin guards, a chest protetcor and a helmet really don't do all that much to protect ligaments, bones and other body parts from the G-forces they absord in a collision like this. They are designed to protect against the impact of a baseball - not a 210 pound human running at 20 mph.

We need to separate the fact that Buster Posey got hurt from the larger issue of player safety. I really think if the player injured was Jason Jaramillo 90% of this discussion goes away. But maybe it is time to look at ways to protect both the baserunner and the catcher. Let's not wait until someone has a life threatening injury and then ask, "Why didn't we do something before this happened?" If we look and there's no workable solution, then at least we can honoestly say we tried.

I do think that Sabean's comments were irresponsible given his position. A GM should not be saying things like that in public. I don't know whether or not his comments are hypocritical, but they do seem inappropriate to me.

I think that the unwritten rule is more that a pitcher is expected to throw at or near a batter in certain circumstances or be shunned by teammates. Not that he has to hit him. A major league batter consistently facing 95 mph heat has to be expected to be able to get out of the way of a fastball.
Would you prefer that this kind of retaliation not be a part of the game? It is actually a deterrent against beanballs. Just as both sides in the Cold War having nukes was a deterrent against atomic war. (apoligies to the no-nukes crowd)
If the Giants really do think Cousins was guilty of a dirty play and plan retaliation at some point, then Sabean's comments are completely moronic. I should think that if Cousins is hit with a pitch or physically harmed in a Giants game, he could bring criminal charges against the SF organization with Sabean's comments as proof of pre-meditation.

One rule that I would like to see changed: Runner on first, one out. On an infield grounder the runner slides way out of the baseline in an attempt to break up the DP. Now I know that the runner can be called out for this and that the double play can be called when he is upended. But I often see a second baseman who still has the ability to complete the DP even though the runner is almost in the outfield trying to take him out. If the DP is completed, then all seems to be forgotten, at least in the eyes of the umps (although the defensive team may make a note of it).
I'd like to see the runner who goes way out of the baseline ejected from the game whether the DP is completed or not. If it isn't completed, the DP should be called AND the player ejected. But I guess that Robinson Cano or Chase Utley will have to be shredded by a runner before this happens.

Cousins and his family in the Bay Area are receving death threats. Is that what Sabean really wants ? He should know better after the tragic fan beating in LA. MLB needs to step in. I assume his comments do not reflect the position of the Giants franchise.

Brian Sabean should know better, and deserves to be fined and disciplined by MLB. And I agree that, regardless of what Sabean (or any other member of the Giants organization) says, the likelihood of Scott Cousins playing against the Giants again this year would have to be nil (unless Marlins management is brain dead).

That much said, I continue to think there is a real problem here that needs to be dealt with. Posey was in front of the plate, in fair territory, awaiting the throw. Cousins, almost all the way down the line from third, could not have missed that, or that he had lots of room to make a slide for the plate away from Posey. Yet from his comments, it appears he never seriously considered the slide in foul territory- what in his view the gods of baseball (that is, you, me, the media, his teammates, his organization)demanded was that he go for Posey. Otherwise, he would be seen (whether he was tagged or called out, or made it) as a candyass. That's the problem. Can this attitude be changed? I don't know. What about you, dude? Any other discussion is hypocrisy.

Cousins launched himself like a projectile at Posey. No problem with trying to blow the catcher up, but it looked like he was a linebacker taking out a running back that was being stood up by another defender.

Put it this way, he'd be fined if that was done in the NFL.

Larry, I've enjoyed most of your stuff here, but I've now wasted 20 minutes of my life going through those videos and rewatching the Posey collision to confirm what I knew I saw the first time: Cousins had a clear path to the plate and went out of his way to fly into Posey like a free safety. Sabean had it exacly right in that article:

"[I]f you watch frame by frame from different angles, he does not take the path to the plate to try to score. He goes after Buster, right shoulder on right shoulder, and to me, that’s malicious.”

Sandoval, Fielder and Schierholtz were all in the basepath when contact occured. None of them moved off the baseline the way Cousins did. Here, you can see for yourself:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15201655

(Incidentally, since you went through the trouble of posting three other videos that you claimed were comparable to this one, wouldn't it have made sense to post the video of the incident under discussion as well?)

Cousins made a mistake. He made the decision to run over Posey with about 15 feet to go (freeze it there, and you see his arms come up behind himself in preparation to lauch into Posey) regardless of where Posey was with respect to the plate. I feel like I'm Bizzarro World; I've been waiting for someone to point out that, unlike almost every other play at the plate, Cousins went out of his way to run over Posey, and when it finally gets said the guy is in danger of getting fined by MLB!

I've watched the Posey collision about a dozen times now and I see nothing malicious in Cousins hit. It was a good clean hit and Posey was definitely in front of the plate and - had he caught the ball - would've been in a good position to tag Cousins out. The issue here isn't Cousins hit or where Posey was positioned as the only reason Posey was hurt the way he was is becuse his leg got stuck and his weight was poorly distributed as he was trying to move his body towards Cousins to block the plate while he was also reaching for the ball causing him to be off-balanced.

I think this hit (http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15258683&topic_id=&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_15258683) from just two days after Posey's hit is the one to really compare it to as, like Posey, Quintero wasn't properly positioned in regards to weight balance as his foot got stuck (on a bat in this case) as he tried to get himself in position.

Larry,

JavaScript errors prevent me from replying directly:

You write:

"No one is arguing Cousins didn't change his course to hit Posey. But that's a completely legal, accepted part of the game and should not be classified as 'malicious'."

Wait, running out of the baseline isn't illegal?

You're supposed to take a direct route to the next base; Cousins clearly didn't do that, and the other players in the videos did. They may have turned their bodies in a way to try to dislodge the ball (or in Schierholt'z case, take the baseline that's rightfully theirs: The catcher didn't have the ball and was standing right in the baseline; that's obstruction. A dick move, to be sure, but not illegal in MLB. Olympics/collegiate yes, but not MLB. In fact, I've gotten injured when a catcher took the baseline to make a phantom tag. Our coach made it clear that he shouldn't do that, and that I have every right to the basepath if a fielder doesn't have the ball.)

Re Sandoval/Doumit: Are you kidding me? Sandoval literally ran over the plate making contact with Doumit, and was in foul territory the entire time until he crosses the plate. Not even close to what Cousins did. If Cousins goes where Sandoval goes there isn't anywhere near the collision that occured.

If you want to keep harping on Sabean for saying "malicious", have fun with that, but the core of the article, that what Cousins did is common, doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and isn't coroborrated by the evidence you've presented.

I see that Johnny Bench has put the blame for the collision on Posey. He says that a catcher needs to stand away from the plate until he has the ball, and then work towards the plate. He should give the runner a clear view of the plate so that the runner has the ability to slide. Otherwise, Bench said, he's like a disabled car in a four-lane highway..he's gonna get smacked.
I'll take Bench's opinions more seriously than I'll take Bruce Bochy's or Mike Metheny's. And a hell of a lot more than Mr. Sabean's.

Sabean is just whining because he lost his franchise player for the season, and probably his team's chances of winning this year. He's complaining about bad luck because often in this play, the runner doesn't hurt the catcher or he is only shaken up. It's just bad luck and Sabean handled it like a 12-year old at a craps table. I'd slap him in the face if I could.

dodgerken22,
This is Baseball Prospectus, not Fox News. The difference between left and right on this site is about how you throw and bat - not whether you think war is better than peace or vice versa. Don't be a "hater". Life's too short.

May be going to hell in a bucket, but at least I'm enjoying the ride.