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As the BBWAA prepares to announce its newest class of Hall of Fame inductees, we asked our staff to fill out their own ballots using the list of players eligible for enshrinement in Cooperstown. Forty ballots were submitted, so players needed to garner at least 30 votes to earn a Baseball Prospectus nod to the Hall, and to notch at least two votes to remain in consideration next year.

Under BBWAA rules—namely, the 10-player voting limit—our 2015 Hall of Fame class features eight players. (The number of ballots on which each player appeared and the percentage that number represents are in parentheses.)

Among the players scrapped from consideration next year were Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, who each received only one vote (2.50%).

To see just how restrictive the 10-player limit is in a year in which the list of eligible players is teeming with potentially worthy names, we gave each of our voters the option to tack additional players onto their ballots. The impact was significant: It made all the difference for four down-ballot hopefuls and kept four of the endangered alive.

With the cap lifted, Curt Schilling added seven votes (36, 90.00%), Craig Biggio picked up nine (35, 87.50%), and Alan Trammell doubled his vote total, from 16 to 32 (80.00%). John Smoltz surged an astounding 21 votes, from 10 to 31 (77.50%). Each of these increases was sufficient for the players to earn their plaques, as far as we're concerned.

Edgar Martinez, who garnered support from only 15 voters with the 10-player ceiling, came just one vote shy of induction (29, 72.50%) with the restriction lifted.

Meanwhile, Gary Sheffield and Sosa—who were mired down the list at one vote under BBWAA rules—rose to eight votes, well more than the two needed to remain under consideration. Jeff Kent, who failed to appear on a single ballot, drew six votes when the balloting was opened up. Finally, Fred McGriff, who had one vote with the 10-player ceiling, got the additional one he needed to secure a spot on the ballot for induction in 2016.

You can view each staff member's ballot, and the full results, by navigating the tabs in the spreadsheet embedded below.

Thank you for reading

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fabiopao
12/31
this is the 2015 hall of fame class as it should be but never will, thanks to the usual suspects that will use their ballot to have 5 minutes of relevance on the internet. and I predict Randy Johnson under 90%, in the long irritating tradition of "if Koufax didn't get 100, I can't see any other pitcher deserving it"..
bline24
12/31
If the BP writers were the only voters, the only 2015 members would be Pedro, Johnson and Smoltz, because the others would have been voted in years ago.
roarke
12/31
Why not have a BP Hall of Fame? The Cooperstown HoF is a great museum, but the voting process has led to some ugly results. Why not just start one of your own. You can have a portion of the website devoted to it with each "plaque" containing advanced metrics and links to PECOTA comparables and other fun stuff like that. Every year the BP staff would comprise the voting pool (or, if you really want to make it an interactive undertaking, BP subscribers could be the voting pool just like with the internet baseball awards).
kcboomer
12/31
Seriously? Even at BP you had one guy who didn't vote for Randy Johnson? Or Pedro?? Hopefully it was a strategic reason like trying to save a vote for a qualified guy who might not get elected if he "wasted" his vote on two guys who were sure to get in.
pizzacutter
12/31
You can view the individual ballots in the spreadsheet. Matt Sussman is the man who left both off his 10-man ballot, although his "extended" ballot included both men.
therealn0d
12/31
Sussman voted for everyone. I'd feel very good about my chances of getting into the Hall if everyone voted like Matt.
mattsussman
12/31
that wasn't very nice, but you probably meant well, so you have my vote
therealn0d
12/31
Well, I have always had a surly relationship with the media, but it's good you can overlook that.
skoormit
1/02
This reply will make the BP comments HOF on its first ballot.
outdoorminer
12/31
Just one McGwire vote is really, really surprising.
bgawlowski14
12/31
Just one in the top ten but twenty-seven total. Hard to slot him in the top ten on this ballot.
jashnew
12/31
Biggio not being in the Hall of Fame is ridiculous. 3000 hits. Imagine if he was a Yankee or a Cardinal. He would have a statue erected and would have been a fist ballot Hall of Famer.
SansRig
12/31
It's still less ridiculous than his teammate's real-life situation.
russell
12/31
It is interesting to me that Larry Walker received fewer votes than Edgar Martinez. I'd be interested in hearing why gtim those who chose Martinez over Walker.
jashnew
12/31
Colorado
bhalpern
1/01
Career at Coors: 381/462/710. Everywhere else about 282/377/500. Counting stats away from Coors times 1.5*: 2019 H, 344 HR, 1200 R, 234 SB. That's all very comparable to Jim Rice. But he got 2500 PAs at Coors where he had a 1.172 OPS with a .385 BABIP. *PAs: Coors-2501, Other:5529.
joshb729
1/02
You can't just x1.5 his road stats. That's not fair. Almost every player has better numbers at home, regardless of how friendly/unfriendly their park was. And there's some interesting data on how difficult it is for Coors guys to adjust away from Coors in a short turnaround because of the atmospheric differences between two locations.
bhalpern
1/02
Fair comment. I've never seen research on the Coors road difficulty phenomenon. I did consider the multiplier didn't account for a home park in place of Coors. The total PAs for Coors vs Other are actually .45:1. Using *1.5 instead of 1.45 gave him an extra 67h/11hr/40r/8sb. Also, 'other' includes his Montreal home stats and those are part of the extrapolation. Even giving him another 5% boost for home park I don't see how he's anything better than a borderline case without Coors.

vbaldacc
1/05
You can't discount Walker's defense. He was a four time gold glover.Yes, he played at Coors Field; however, he should be credited for playing excellent defense there. An average OF'er would be a liability at Coors. How does anybody vote for Edgar over Walker? Odd to say the least.
quackman
12/31
I can't speak for them, but career length has to be a factor. Martinez had 1,765 more plate apperances than Walker did. How that weighs against Walker's additional 10,158 fielding innings is a fair question.
jdeich
12/31
I'm curious how the actual BBWAA voting for Pedro will turn out.

Con: "Only 219 Wins! Fewer than Jerry Reuss", "Only two 20-win seasons!", "Aside from his 1993-1994 stint with the Padres, he was terrible!", "He can't be unanimous because reasons!"
Pro: Duh, of course he should be in.

He'll get in, but with a percentage that makes you scratch your head. I suspect at least a few "Back in my day!" writers will overlook him.
adamst
12/31
Pedro is obviously a Hall of Famer. But I see a couple of reasons to omit him.

First, the gamesmanship theory a la Kevin Gaussman. Second, if you have a fundamental view that the Hall is for excellence over time and you think his career was simply too short. He has 1/2 - 2/3 the IP of the guys in the Hall. You'd likewise argue against Koufax, Schilling, and others with short careers. Not saying I agree with it, but it's a reasonable way to view things.
adamst
12/31
Thanks for doing this. The difference between 10 max and unlimited is striking:

1) The gamesmanship of Matt Sussman. Right or wrong that he has to make a choice is dumb.

2) That Smoltz and Biggio don't get in with the 10 limit while in the public vote they're going to finish 3rd and 4th or 5th and almost certainly get in. And that feels legit to me. If you look past PEDs, there are 8 slam dunk Hall of Fame players on the ballot. And then there's a pretty good argument that Smoltz and Trammell aren't the two best remaining players. Yet Biggio gets a lot of support for the magic 3000 hits and Smoltz gets votes... I guess because Braves.

3) There are four guys with what appears to be middling support who get in or come close when ballots are extended.

I suspect the reason we don't see this in reality is a combination of group think (everyone votes for Smoltz and Biggio) and enough people omit Bonds, Clemens, and to a lesser degree Bagwell and Piazza, allowing them to vote for the top 13 or 14 players.

Of course as one commenter said, if we just put all those guys in last year or the year before, we wouldn't have this logjam.

Hoping the actual results put 5 guys in with Bagwell very, very close.
jssharo
12/31
Interesting to hear not one peep about PEDs in this entire discussion. It seems that at BP, there is no argument: PED users should be allowed into the HOF. I do not mean to re-ignite arguments that we have all heard many times before, but I find it odd that there seems to be NOBODY at BP who considers this issue as relevant while a large proportion of baseball fans of good will (including myself, to be honest) do consider it relevant.
oloughla
12/31
I think it's safe to assume this is false. Bonds only got 37 out of the possible 40 votes even after the limit was lifted. There is literally no coherent argument unrelated to PEDs for why he shouldn't be inducted, and therefore it is pretty clear that the reason he was left off those 3 ballots (Arthur, Cromer, and Carlton) is related to PEDs.
anderson721
12/31
I may be wrong-my wife tells me I occasionally am- but I think without the taint of PEDS McGwire is right near the top of the voting.
therealn0d
12/31
I don't think there is any need to keep going over this, which is why I think we don't keep going over it.
onegameref
12/31
Why no Sosa or Palmeiro? Both seem to meet standards from performance but lose due to stupidity in testimony. I've still never seen an argument that could state that taking a steroid would make you a better baseball player simply by taking them. The player still needed to workout to gain the benefits and greater strength, while valuable, does not in itself necessitate success.
TwinsfanTravis
12/31
I think the argument against steroids is increased strength and is evidenced by the inflated offense of the entire "steroid era" and the deflated offense once testing became commonplace. The argument against HGH (for better or worse) is that it greatly decreases recovery time from fatigue and/or injuries, in theory allowing a user to play many more games at optimal physical condition than non users. Both of those things would make a baseball player better than their peers.
BSLJeffLong
1/01
Palmeiro wasn't eligible because he didn't get 5% of the vote in BBWAA voting last year. He'd have gotten an extended ballot vote from me this year if he was eligible.

As for Sosa ... I just think it's tough to say he's one of the top 10 guys on the ballot. He's an extended ballot guy for me. So he's worthy IMO, just not as worthy as at least 10 others.
onegameref
1/02
That Palmeiro dropped off so quickly is the surprising thing for me. Sosa is certainly not a slam dunk choice but one that could grow on voters over time. Thanks for the reply.
sbnirish77
1/01
"Interesting to hear not one peep about PEDs in this entire discussion."

"but I find it odd that there seems to be NOBODY at BP who considers this issue as relevant while a large proportion of baseball fans of good will (including myself, to be honest) do consider it relevant."

Welcome to the arrogancy that is Baseball Prospectus.

This entire self-flagellation over Clemens and Bonds is only relevant to those who still continue to ignore PEDs. For those willing to write-off the cheaters, a 10-man ballot is more than enough.

You are quick to pick up on the degree of group-think reflected in these numbers which are such a distortion from the reality which we will see from a wide and diverse voting group next week.

Look for the article here which will ridicule the consensus which will no doubt differ from the enlightened intelligentsia of Baseball Prospectus.
therealn0d
1/01
Yeah, well, that's just, like, you're opinion, man.
mblthd
1/02
Are you surprised at my tears, sir?
trueblue33
1/02
And there's no arrogance in your reply at all, much like there's no sarcasm in mine.
SansRig
1/03
I would argue that the zeitgeist at BP is actually the opposite of what you're describing. It's almost a daily thing for a BP writer to make a statement regarding how they are deferring to some baseball executive regarding a decision or happenings of that day. I think that BP, at least, has moved past the snarky blogging of the Earlier years.
theduke11
1/02
I'm always surprised that the sabr community is unconcerned about PEDs and older writers have a big issue with it. Seems the sabr community doesn't care about cheating and more importantly doesn't care much for the purity of the data. By giving bonds and others a pass, it screws guys like mcgriff/mussina who would otherwise have a great story. It so makes cross-generation comparisons very hard. Basically PEDS wrecked the data sets for 20 years but no one seems to care.

Seems like the older guys wouldn't give a hoot much like JFK got a pass from the press on womanizing but Clinton didn't, but they seem to hate the Roiders.
Behemoth
1/02
I don't think you decide who gets into the Hall of Fame based on what they might have done to the datasets.
roarke
1/02
I don't think the community is unconcerned so much as it just doesn't know what to do with the situation. It seems clear that the known cheaters are really just the tip of the iceberg of all users for a period of time. How can you take PED use into account for Bonds/Clemens/McGwire and not for the unknown users? Even if you could take PED use into account, how much of an effect did it have? These are impossible questions to answer and so instead of just pretending that those players didn't accomplish the things that they did on the field, we have to just acknowledge that they happened and that the whole era was flawed to an unknowable extent and move on.
BSLJeffLong
1/02
This is one of the best summations of the issue that I've seen.
pizzacutter
1/02
Pretty much.
andrews
1/02
You don't let a convicted criminal off because there must be lots of other people who have done the same thing, but they haven't been arrested and found guilty.
roarke
1/02
We aren't talking about crimes, though, we are talking about the validity of accomplishments on a baseball field. There are a number of logical threads that you can go down if you follow the assumptions that you are making: if these players have been "convicted" of a baseball crime, why hasn't MLB punished them (erased their statistics from the recordbook, for example)? Why is the punishment only coming from the HoF voters?; if MLB believes their statistics are legitimate enough to stand in the official books, why shouldn't they be judged on those statistics for HoF purposes?; what is the standard of proof that must be met to "convict" these players? A positive test? Admission of guilt? Unsubstantiated whispers?; Without knowing the true effect of PEDs, how can we possibly fairly evaluate the accomplishments of the "unconvicted" players of the same era? Does Clemens supposed use taint the World Series that Jeter won? Do we have to downgrade Jeter's HoF case because he benefitted from Clemens and A-Rod using?

It's a rabbit-hole that never ends, even it you avoid the question of 'who else was using that we don't know about'.
andrews
1/02
Hi Roarke, it was just meant as an anology. I don't have overly strong views on this but I was just pointing out what I perceived to be a falicious argument by the original poster.

The penalties for ped use are so ridiculously lenient that having your whole career besmirched and being precluded from the recognition of being voted into the HOF is the only effective deterrent.
Dodger300
1/02
The comments made you uncomfortable enough to claim "it was only analogy." A piss-poor analogy, I might add.

Then your second paragraph totally negates the first one by revealing how committed you are to playing the judgmental card.
andrews
1/03
No, the reply suggested that the replier failed to grasp that it was an analogy. I think your comment singles you out as someone with the inability or lack of intelligence to realise that. If so I'd like to stop corresponding with you. Life is too short to waste time on idiots :)
dethwurm
1/06
"The penalties for ped use are so ridiculously lenient that having your whole career besmirched and being precluded from the recognition of being voted into the HOF is the only effective deterrent."

Except that doesn't stop Olympians or pro-cyclers at all (nor does the NCAA officially removing wins/championships seem to dissuade recruiting and eligibility shenanigans). If 50+ game bans aren't enough to dissuade people, HOF ineligibility sure as heck won't either. Doesn't mean you have to like them or vote for them or anything, but don't think that's any sort of meaningful deterrent.
sbnirish77
1/02
"I'm always surprised that the sabr community is unconcerned about PEDs ... Seems the sabr community doesn't care about cheating and more importantly doesn't care much for the purity of the data."

Good observation JohnnyB.

I've always thought that the reason the sabr community, especially here at BP, doesn't want to include PEDs in the discussion is that they render PECOTA a house of cards.

The comps are essentially worthless (the wrecked data sets for 20 years you mention) and without PECOTA much of the analysis here is compromised at best, corrupted at worst.

Seems pretty logical and obvious but you'll only get shouted down as a dissenting opinion here.
pizzacutter
1/02
I can really only speak for myself on this one (and I have very little to do with PECOTA) but here's why I don't even bother with PED allegations. I just don't care. I know it all looks so sanitized on TV, but it's just not. I can't sit there and wag my finger at someone while drinking my own morning performance enhancing caffeinated beverage.
theduke11
1/02
I don't think you don't care. I think you can't be bothered to spend any time on it which is odd given the time all of you spend dissecting every other piece of baseball minutae ( and I mean that in a positive vein). PED usage dramatically changed the playing field more than any other thing in baseball history since they banned the spitball.

So the arguments fall into the following categories

1. Who cares about statistics ? Interesting response on a baseball prospectus website

2. I drink coffee, so I don't care ( everyone does it argument ) and its corrolary - Ty Cobb was a racist

3. I don't know who else cheated massively so I won't penalize the obvious cheaters

4 I don't want to think about this, so I wont



Jervass
1/03
Should the players that we even suspect used PEDs be penalized because they played in an era with better science? Many HoF inductees have admitted using substances that they thought would enhance their performances...even if the substance actually didn't do much for them. They were trying to cheat.

I would vote Clemens and Bonds in if I had a ballot, simply because both were the best in baseball before they were assumed to be using. They remained the best in the game while using. And if the assumption is that PED usage was so rampant and that so many were using, then that means they didn't gain any real advantage (since 'everyone' was using)...and they were still *that much better* than their contemporaries.

Regardless, I think it breaks down to a fairly simple observation, at least in my mind. The HoF is, more than anything else, a museum to the game of baseball. The Steroid Era happened, just as the era of excluding African-American players happened....yet we still acknowledge the players from that era who may not have ever seen a field if African-Americans had been allowed to play.

The Hall is a museum that records the history of the game. To pretend the Steroid Era didn't happen is to ignore the history of the game. IMHO.
dethwurm
1/06
This to me is the most compelling argument for including the "Steroid Era" guys: players who played during segregation and during the World Wars, not to mention the nineteenth century when they had running starts for pitchers etc., played in a much more uneven playing field than PEDs could ever create. If their accomplishments count, so do those of players who used PEDs.

I put PEDs in the same category as pitchers who doctor the ball. MLB can (and should) police it as they see fit, but at the end of the day, what happens on the field is what happens on the field and no hypotheticals should replace that, just as we don't give the World Series Trophy to the team with the best adjusted-third-order-Winning-Percentage.

Gambling and match-rigging are different, I think, because they involve players being in positions where they aren't necessarily trying to win. That is unacceptable.
vbaldacc
1/05
There were no rules against PED usage. Secondly, amphetamines were used by some players who are now in the HOF. Should those players still be there? Amphetamines are now a banned substance.

Please spare us your self-righteousness please.

Lastly, in the future back up your opinions with some facts.
BurrRutledge
1/05
Just for the record, use of steroids were against the rules. I've heard plenty of people say they were not, but I think that's a false logic. They were not explicitly named in the CBA, true. But they were controlled substances under federal law, and no controlled substances were permitted without doctor's prescription. Players were not getting prescriptions. Players were getting them through illegal channels, and hiding their use.

I don't know enough about the 'greenies' era to comment, but I believe you're correct on that issue. I've heard they were so widely used that teams would spike the coffee in the clubhouse. Don't know if that's true either, but read it somewhere.
maphal
1/02
This has probably been said many times, but I would vote in about 15 guys this year, including all the PED users. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa.....put them all in. Does the BBWAA ever really look at the characters and careers that have been voted into the HOF over the years? Ray Schalk, Travis Jackson, Vic Willis, Lloyd Waner? Not to mention the racists (Anson, Landis), scoundrels (Cobb), and mentally unstable (Waddell).

You know what would happen to the baseball HOF if all the PED users were voted in? Nothing.
trueblue33
1/02
I've never understood why Alan Trammell hasn't gotten much love, so I'm happy to see he was included here (even if it took the expanded numbers to do it). Dude had 6 seasons of 6+ WAR, and another 3 seasons at 4+. People seem quick to anoint Jeter as a first ballot guy but to dismiss Trammell. They're both HOFers in my opinion.

Love these types of discussion! Good work!
andrews
1/03
Agreed he should be in (as should Lou Whitaker and Bill Freehan, but they played for Detroit).
andrews
1/03
Anyone who advocates the inclusion of a baseball player in the HOF who used peds is condoning the use of peds. It really is that simple and I think the BP writers who advocate that position need to have the courage of their convictions and come out and publically acknowledge this.

Don't hide behind weasel words and comments like "I don't care if they took peds,".

If you vote for Bonds you are saying "Baseball players should take peds if it will improve their performance".

If that's what you really feel then it's time to be honest and admit it.
kenfunck
1/03
I respect the opinions of those who would never vote for an admitted or proven PED user, and I don't mean to use weasel words or hide behind semantics, although this may well come off that way. However, I think there's a little more nuance here than you're allowing. I'll gladly cop to "condoning" the use of PEDs by baseball players, but there are two strings attached:

1) They played during the post-strike era when it was clear that MLB itself was in effect condoning the use of PEDs by deliberately looking the other way while luring fans back with increased offensive output;

2) "Condone" means "to disregard or overlook," or (as per the OED) "approve or sanction (something), especially with reluctance (from the Latin condonare, "refrain from punishing")."

I don't think that's the same thing as saying "Baseball players should take PEDs if it will improve their performance." It's more like saying "While I wish no one had ever taken PEDs, or that baseball had actively sought to discover and punish those who did without allowing it to run rampant, I understand and am willing to forgive PED usage during that time," the same way some voters forgive pre-enforcement amphetamine usage, or carving the baseball, or corked bats.

It's not a position I'm pleased to have, or one I have come to without any thought on the matter. If I could truly identify those who did and didn't use with some degree of certainty, and it was a pretty small percentage of players that did use, then I'd probably be far more willing to argue against those players because I would know their career numbers may well be unfairly inflated compared to the vast majority of their peers. But I don't know that, and probably never will, which leaves me these options:

(a) picking and choosing to exclude admitted or accused users or players with a suspicious career arc, knowing that I may well still be voting for players that used or against players that didn't;

(b) excluding everyone from that era, since they may have been a user, knowing that I may well be voting against players that were clean; or

(c) admitting I don't have a clue who really did or didn't use, and disregard steroids altogether in my decision.

None of those options taste like pumpkin pie, but for me (c) tastes the least like sewer rat since I'd rather punish no one than punish the innocent or treat many players who may have committed the same sin unequally. There's too much uncertainty for me to go with (a) or (b).

If that's "condoning", so be it. We can talk again when a player like Braun, whose major league career is entirely post-enforcement, comes up for a vote.
andrews
1/03
Hi Ken,

Thanks for the considered response. Option c is just too convenient I'm afraid.
We all know who we are talking about here, and its unfortunate that the two players involved (Bonds and Clemens) were so talented that they would have walked into the HOF without Peds but now must be used as an example to others and never allowed in.
theduke11
1/03
Its not at all clear to me that it was condoned by MLB. The admissions by Canseco and others as to how this activity was carried out (in secret, usually with third party suppliers)as well as everyone's behavior of hiding it and not talking about it before, during or after indicates it was a known bad activity and depending on the drug, illegal.

Most officials chalked it up to weight training. Whether that was a convenient curtain to hide behind, I don't know, but it certainly wasn't the training staff and team doctors medicating these guys.

And I still don't get what's wrong with penalizing "only the few". That's how the real world works. some people lie, rob and steal and get caught and others don't. It doesn't mean you conclude that the behavior is ok. What is it about Palmeiro, Bonds, Clemens, Petitte, Sheffield, McGwire that you don't know?

if you want to say that you don't have the goods on bagwell, piazza, biggio, thomas, etc, that seems perfectly fine.

and finally, it seems that this group of writers could find a statistical way to show which players are likely to have been roiders. you have data before and after the roid cycle, you have enough data on players who did use and how it impacted their performance and aging curves, shouldn't you be able to model who is likely to have used based on performance outside the norm?
kenfunck
1/03
Reasonable points all. However, I personally believe "condone" is the perfect word to describe how MLB (both the league and MLBPA) handled steroids in the late nineties to mid-aughties. McGwire copped to using andro in late '98, and everyone with eyes could see that offensive numbers (and players) were growing ridiculously large. Rick Helling stood up in the MLBPA meetings each year starting that fall to say that steroid usage was rampant, to the point where players were starting to feel they had to use in order to compete, and something had to be done.

MLB "leaped" into action by unilaterally implementing drug-testing. On minor leaguers. In 2001. With the need for four failed tests to lose a full season. It took many more years for public pressure to bring MLB and the MLBPA kicking and screaming to anything resembling an effective enforcement regime.

Up to and during that time, I personally believe many, many players used. Some of them because they didn't care; some of them because they saw others using and felt they needed to in order to compete. If I had been a player in 1998 and saw how users were going unpunished, and how I might be at a competitive disadvantage if I didn't use, I'd like to think I still wouldn't use. But, frankly, I'm not sure that I wouldn't, so I personally would feel hypocritical chastising those who did. Here's what Helling said in 1998: "It's one thing to be a cheater, to be somebody who doesn't care whether it's right or wrong. But it's another thing when other guys feel like they have to do it just to keep up. And that's what's happening." I agree with him.

So what I don't know about Palmeiro, Bonds, Clemens, Pettitte, and Sheffield is whether they would have used without already knowing so many of their peers were using. And I probably will never know that. And as I said before, that's what makes me willing to overlook usage by players during that particular time. I can respect why others wouldn't make that exception and say that cheating is cheating regardless of the circumstances, but that's why I continue to "vote" for Bonds and Clemens. When these discussions come up for post-enforcement players like Braun, I may very well draw a completely different conclusion.

To your last point, while the lack of exact information on who used and when they used makes it harder, I totally agree that you could model careers in such a way that you can identify which players were more likely to have taken steroids. That information wouldn't change my "vote," since my vote isn't based on a denial of usage or a denial that usage may have increased productivity, but it might for others.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they're wrong for thinking admitted or proven PED users should be banned from the Hall; that's a perfectly reasonable and acceptable position. Just trying to explain why my position is different.
TwinsfanTravis
1/03
That's a bit of a false dilemma that you've created. There are are other options than just that A,B, and C. Being an educated human being, you can use logic and reason to judge on a case by case basis based on the current evidence available, and the strength of that evidence, to determine whether they cheated or not. That is how most decision in life are made. I don't understand why this one is all of a sudden so different. If you feel, based on your research and the evidence available, that Barry Bonds (or Jeff Bagwell, or Piazza) didn't use or there is not enough solid evidence to conclusively say they did, vote for them and then stand behind your vote on those grounds. But to choose option C in that logical fallacy is just a cop out.
sbnirish77
1/03
Just heard an interesting statistic on MLB network.

Last year a full 10 names were submitted on the ballot for 50% of the voters.

The previous high in any year was 23%.

So for the previous 75 years of baseball, the imposed limits were perfectly adequate (and even acceptable for 50% of the voters last year).

The reason we have a backlog now is that a host of PED users have been passed over by a majority of the voters that others still cling to.

Without consideration of PEDs, those players would ALREADY be in the Hall (given the few admissions in the past 5 years) and 10 votes would be more than enough to consider the other candidates this year (just like it has been for the entire past history of the Hall).

It seems the frustration by those who continue to campaign for PED users (and inability to accept the views of the majority of the current voters) has lead them to suggest a different set of rules that would allow them to bang their drum.

sbnirish77
1/03
The apologist's Bible which I posted many years ago ....

1. Steroids have no effect upon performance.
2. The effect of steroids can't be quantified.
3. Even if the effect of steroids could be quantified on an individual basis, there is no way to quantify the effect across MLB.
4. Even if we could quantify the effect across MLB, the numbers of users is so small that its not worth worrying about.
5. Even if the numbers of users was large enough to make a difference, both pitchers and hitters were users, so the effect is a wash to the game.
6. Even if steroids did have an effect on the game, isn't it better for the game if we just turn the page and move on?
7. Who Cares?

Some of the postings cover many of these issues.

I guess Russell has finally worked though all of the other arguments to reach

"I don't care"

As least he is one BP writer who has made some progress in his own admissions.

Dodger300
1/03
I don't care either.

And if I was coming up on a contract negotiation where tens of millions of dollars were at stake, perhaps even hundreds of millions, I would have used, too.

And for all of you goody-two-shoes who swear you would not get your fingernails dirty even if it might mean tens of millions of dollars to you, I call 99% of you self-deluded liars.

Okay. All of the holier-than-thou moralists can begin bashing me now, but in your hearts you know I speak the truth..

paperwinner
1/04
All of this moralizing tells me more about yourselves and your rigidities. It really is no different than the Salem witch trials. Holier then thou moralists doesn't even begin to cut it with these Pharisees. Cue the tumbrils! You know that exclusion to the hall of fame for Barry or Roger is the least punishment that the righteous want. It's a flawed world folks but it is the one we have. This outrage is hardly about baseball and lots more about resentment and posturing.
BurrRutledge
1/04
It's a conundrum.

Steroids were against the rules (... yes, they were controlled substances and were against the rules unless prescribed by a doctor (which in this case they weren't)).

Some players took them (illicitly). The rules weren't enforced. Then, according to the current narrative, more players took them. Until longstanding records were being shattered, and the legacy of our national pastime was being tarnished.

Every industry has its darker unsavory side. Usually that side of the industry is punished when it exposed to the light. Criminals are prosecuted. Recognition and accomplishments are withdrawn. Even in sports (at least sports other than modern baseball), this is true. Think Lance Armstrong, NCAA recruiting violations, etc. Very few baseball players have been subject to that same scrutiny.

But the HOF is an honor bestowed AFTER the fact. To individuals. By a collective group of individual professionals whose livelihood is based on the people being recognized. And who are responsible (to some degree) of creating the narrative that defines the legacy of the sport.

I hold myself to the highest professional and personal standards, and II expect the writers casting ballots to do the same. I expect a vast majority of them are, within the context of their own perspectives on the issue.

I don't think I could vote for Bonds and Clemens, if I had a vote. I don't find (my perception of) their behavior and their presumed choices to be worthy of the enshrinement. Others I'm less sure about. But tomorrow I might change my position, to allow my opinion to be swayed by a persuasive and well-reasoned argument, either for Barry and Roger, or against other suspects. A voters job in this circumstance is to pass judgment on the players. I don't think it's an easy choice, and as a fan, I try not to pass judgment on the writers who cast those ballots.


crperry13
1/04
I don't understand any argument in which people think Craig Biggio isn't a hall of famer, but Derek Jeter is. Both were "compilers", but Biggo wasn't a Yankee.
jssharo
1/06
PEDs really messed up the HOF. Any way you look at it, there is injustice being done.

- If you let everyone in based on their stats and accomplishments alone, then you are screwing the guys who stayed clean (PEDs CAN work; look at Bonds' baseball card). Taken to its logical conclusion, ARod must be elected to the HOF. I feel a need to shower just typing that.

- If keep you only the most the most likely/egregious offenders (we all know who) out but let in guys who there is some question on (Ortiz, Bagwell, Piazza, etc), well, you will be right on some and wrong on others and therefore be making wrong calls.

- If you paint a broad brush ad keep everyone with some question out, well, you will be keeping some guys who did not use out.

Letting everyone in PEDs or no is the cleanest solution in that you do not have to make hard (and in many cases inaccurate) decisions about who used and who did not use, and I think that intellectual clarity entices folks in the analytic community. But it's still wrong.

Because all the answers are wrong. Which makes the HOF was a casualty of the steroid era. What a crying shame.